“Healing from Spiritual Abuse: Aaron’s Journey”

SHOW SUMMARY

What is Church Hurt

Church hurt is the disillusionment experienced by those whose expectations of the church are not met, often due to spiritual abuse. Daigle experienced six weeks of depression after his relationship with his pastor, a father figure he had grown to adore, took a nasty turn. He felt scared to share his story due to the stigma of speaking out against the church. Ultimately he felt led to tell his story and found that many others were experiencing the same struggles. He defines church hurt as feeling used and worse off than before, being spiritually abused by a pastor with selfish ambitions. He suggests that churches should be a safe place for people to struggle and lists nine signs of church hurt., Justin and Aaron discuss the signs of such toxic leadership, including separating from friends and family, gossiping about other church members, and setting up a smokescreen of accountability. They also ponder how to minister to someone who has been hurt by a toxic leader.

Ministering to Those Hurt by Toxic LeadershiP

When someone has been hurt by a toxic leader, it can be difficult to reconnect with the church. Such individuals may become critical of the church and the pastor and experience an inhibition to connect. In order to minister to these individuals, it is important to meet them where they are, acknowledge the pain they have experienced, and create a safe space for them to express their feelings. Additionally, it is important to ensure that the church has a system of accountability in place to protect against further toxic leadership., In this audio, Aaron shares his experience of church hurt, and how he was able to find healing.

The Gaslighting Effect

Aaron describes his experience of being gaslit by his former pastor. Gaslighting is a term popularized in recent years, but can be defined as manipulating someone into doubting their own perceptions of reality. In Aaron’s case, he was made to doubt his own feelings and experiences, causing him to internalize the hurt.

The Path to Healing

Aaron sought help from both a professional therapist and his presbyter. The therapist helped Aaron realize he was in an abusive relationship, and the presbyter was able to investigate and ensure Aaron was in right standing. Additionally, Aaron was prompted to call his former pastor and kindly but respectfully, tell him he would not fulfill the agreement they had made, which allowed Aaron to start healing.

A Leap of Faith

Aaron was able to reconnect with healthy churches and pastors. It took a leap of faith for Aaron to give a new pastor a chance, and for the pastor to love a person past their hurt. However, God was aware of the leader’s gifting and sent the right people to the church for healing. Ultimately, Aaron found healing and was able to move forward with his ministry., In the context of spiritual abuse, confronting the person in charge may not be the best approach, as the spirit of Jezebel is often a factor and can be highly confrontational and intimidating. If God has not called us to address the issue, it is important to go to a healthier church environment.

When ready to reengage in ministry, it is important to acknowledge the pain and take the time to heal. It is not our fault that we have been hurt, but it is our responsibility to heal. When taking the leap of trust to reengage in ministry, it is important to put boundaries in place that protect us from further hurt.,

The Power of Boundaries

Boundaries are essential for any healthy person, and Jesus was no exception. Jesus understood that those who attempted to corner Him were not doing so out of kindness and refused to be drawn in to their games. Paul also showed firmness in his identity and refused to let people belittle him. Cloud and Townsend’s books, “Safe People” and “Boundaries” are great tools for those who have experienced church hurt and need to learn how to set up healthy boundaries to protect themselves from further harm.

The Dangers of Unchecked Ambition

When people lead a church without first dealing with their own soulish issues, they can become selfish and ambitious. This can lead to the manipulation, control, fear, confusion and perversion of their followers. Solomon’s story is a reminder of how even pious figures can become corrupted by unchecked ambition.

The Importance of Standing Up

Aaron’s story of church hurt shows how important it is for those in a position of authority to stand up against mistreatment. He realized that, while it is not his fault, had he taken a stand against the pastor’s manipulation and abuse, he would have been able to protect himself and his wife. He encourages spiritual leaders to ensure they have people in their lives who can speak truth to them and protect them from becoming spiritually abusive., Daigle is a pastor who is aware of the dangers that spiritual leaders face. He explains that if spiritual leaders are not following the Lord’s ambition, it can lead to them hurting people. He emphasizes the importance of making sure that decisions are made according to the Lord’s steps and not what is perceived as ‘right in one’s own eyes’. Aaron also speaks about his work and how people can find him on platforms such as YouTube and Instagram.

Aaron’s Heart for the Lord

Aaron clearly speaks with a heart for the Lord and for people. He shares his story with the intention of adding value and helping others. He emphasizes the importance of pursuing the Lord’s ambition and being aware of how decisions made can affect others. He also shares how people can find him on various platforms in order to learn more if they wish.

Where to Watch the Full Episode

Youtube

Rumble

Where to LIsten to the Show:

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

Anchor.FM

Follow Aaron

Youtube

Instagram

Aarons’s Books

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

This Transcript has not been edited for grammar or spelling and is auto-generated.

Are you struggling with church hurt? In this video I’m joined by Aaron Daigle who shares his story of

healing from church hurt and how you can do the same. You were in an abusive relationship and like

seeing that, like acknowledging that when I started to see, you know, this was a narcissist, this is a

sociopath that you were in a relationship with. Listen, I know a lot of people have been hurt by

the church. Maybe you felt rejected, ignored, or you felt like you didn’t belong and it’s hard to

trust again after walking through this sort of pain. In this video you’re going to find Aaron’s

powerful story. If I could change something I would go back and instead of siding with my pastor

I would definitely side with my wife and tell my pastor like you would you would never be allowed

to speak about my wife like that to me. You can pass her with your friends but you’re not going

to pass her to me. And how he walked through some struggles with church hurt and ultimately

found healing and how it’ll help you find hope for your future too. I went through about five years

the tail end of being in church. I had a lead pastor, and then I was the sort of the administrative

pastor running small groups, the Spanish church prayer, everything under his ministry in our local

church. And we had a great relationship. He was a father figure to me. He was everything. I mean,

I went to him with all questions, and just I adored him. The last five years of that though,

So things took a turn for the worse.

He had got in his head that my wife and I were not being loyal, that we were out

to sabotage his church or his ministry.

I don’t know exactly, but it took a very nasty turn.

I share a lot of the details on the YouTube videos, not as much as I think I’m

going to share in the book, ultimately, that I put out on it.

But man, to be honest, dude, I sat on it for years.

I have been six and a half years out of that church

and I was scared, bro.

I was scared to talk about it,

scared to talk about the fact that I was hurt in church

because I felt like, man, doors are gonna close.

Pastors aren’t gonna invite us.

Podcasters aren’t gonna want us on their show

because in the Christian world,

you don’t talk about the fact that you were hurt in church.

So finally I just felt led.

I got some encouragement for some friends

and I shared more of the details on the videos

and just been taking wherever the Lord leads us from there.

You know, ever since, bro.

What was the paradigm for you that caused you

to just kind of go from this point of,

you’ve been silent about it.

You know, I don’t want to say much.

It could cost me your reputation or open doors or whatever

to being able to finally get to that place

where you’re like, you know what?

I’ve got to speak about this now.

Hearing how many people are going through it.

You know, when it all blew up,

I sat in my house for six weeks. I didn’t go anywhere. I did not have no church, no pastor.

I was depressed. I’m not naturally prone to depression. And I just had no direction. Like

the whole world that I knew was ripped out from under me. And I felt very alone. But then there’s

no resources. Like, where do you go? Who do you go talk to? And I would look for help. And the only

thing I found, which was a very solid resource was the bait of Satan. But that was sort of

of, you know, that’s written in the context of whenever like your heart like needs to be right

with God. And like, it just it gave me something, but it wasn’t everything that I needed. And I

started talking with other people traveling. And I’m hearing, you know, I went through this, or

I’m not in church anymore. I hate God because of this experience. And I said, wow, like, I’m not

the only one. There’s other people dealing with this. And it needs to be talked about.

And that Beta Satan book is fantastic, but you’re right.

I mean, it’s about dealing with the personal offense,

but and really checking our motives, right?

But, you know, sometimes when we are correct, you know,

and there is that hurt and those leaders have impacted us,

it’s like, man, how do I process that?

And yeah, there’s so many people, man,

I think about the struggles of modern church

and how we’re, I’m not hopeless,

but it seems like we’re losing ground, right?

especially in America, it seems like we’re going backwards.

And I wonder how many folks out there

are struggling with church hurt

and the reason the church is kind of feeling

like it’s going backwards,

even though we are getting closer to eternity,

how many people are out there

and they’ve had these unspoken issues

and they’ve just abandoned the church as a result.

How would you define church hurt?

So say somebody is listening to this

and they’re like, I think I’ve ever had some experiences,

but like when you say church hurt, Aaron,

what do you mean by that?

To answer that, and let’s continue

exactly what you’re saying is this, you know, society is sort

of winning and getting ahead to where like, this Christian

nation, America, you know, the place where God, if he has a

place on earth to live, it’s America, you know, you know,

it’s in its changed society has been so disillusioned. And, you

know, from a lot of misconceptions and faulty

beliefs, but this hatred from the church that was always in

society that is now exploded. Well, now what we’re seeing is a

lot of people who were once in church, following in those same

trends now. And so like, there’s also this, these massive groups

of people with Christian backgrounds, who are saying,

man, I hate the church, I’m done with the church, like, and their

disillusion with what they’ve seen. And most of what they have

seen has been church hurt what we’re talking about. So with

that, you know, talking about what it is, when we go to

church, unless we’re drugged to church as kids, or because we’re

trying to please a spouse, you know, I mean, for the most part,

as an adult, we’re gonna go with an expectation, I want to be

healed of something, I want, you know, friends I can trust in, I

have this expectation of the good that church is going to

provide for me. But then once I get there, and I get involved,

if it is a church where spiritual abuse is happening,

the opposite happens.

My expectations are shattered.

And instead of trustworthy friendships,

I now have worse friendships.

And I feel like the ones in the world were better.

Instead of getting healed, I feel worse off than before.

And some of this is tied to a spiritual leader,

a pastor who has selfish ambitions

and is trying to build his kingdom

under the name of God’s kingdom.

And is just using people to fulfill that purpose.

And when people feel used like that and you know that they’re not being, you know, lifted into the fulfilling of their calling and their ministry, but they’re being used to fulfill somebody selfish ambition because a megachurch is going to give him a name.

You know, now he can be the next Stephen Furtick because he’s got this big megachurch. And if people feel that and it crushes people, you’re bulldozing over people to accomplish this kingdom that is said to be God’s kingdom. But it’s not. And these words and actions are just leaving Christians disillusioned.

And so hence the term church hurt. Yeah, you know, I was listening to Ruslan if you follow Ruslan on YouTube at all

But he’s got some amazing content

But he was having a conversation about the amount of pastors that that have this communication gift, right and

In the right context they can use it

But what’s happened is for those of us who have a heart for ministry

The church has typically been the only alternative and so outside of modern culture

You’ve got a bunch of people that have an incredible communication gift have a bunch of kick charisma

but ultimately are in a shepherding role, you know,

leading churches, and they really shouldn’t be, right?

And so it’s not good for the leader,

and it’s not good for the church members either,

because there’s nothing wrong with building the platform.

But when you try to do that in the wrong context,

we start to see some of the fallout as a result of that.

And so you said church hurt, man.

I love that expectation and offense, right?

And John Bevere does talk about that in his book.

I think one of the quotes in there

quotes in there was, the greater the expectation, the greater the offense.

But let’s bring that back a little bit, right?

Because there should be some expectations when we come to church, like it should be

a safe place.

And I believe that, like I think church should be the safest place on the earth to struggle.

Said that so many times before.

And so how do we deal with that, right?

Coming in and we’re walking into a church and we feel it.

Like what are some of the signs, you know, churchhood?

I know you did a video that describes what I think nine of them,

nine signs, a church shirt, nine cat, nine signs that it may be happening.

Justin, I agree with that too. Like it should be,

and it is the best place to struggle. It is a healthy place. You know, it’s,

it’s that just because you get pricked by a needle doesn’t mean the whole hay

stack is full of spikes, you know? And so it’s, it’s that,

it’s like you get into that one church that just warps your idea about it. Um,

but anyways, yeah, of the nine signs, uh,

let’s kind of talk about two, three of them kind of dance around here. But one of the big ones I’ve

seen is separating you from friends and family, both before and after. So, you know, I think the

church is a huge component to our, to our world. But if you’re only working in church, your only

focus is in church, but God never called you to just be inside of a bubble. He called you to be

infiltrating the world and to changing the world, not being like the world, but being that influence,

to be that light shining on a hill. And so anything that takes you away from everything to

the exclusion of that alone is sort of cultish. I mean, it is cultish. So what does that look like?

How does that play out? Like when you say separating from friends and family, you know,

you don’t have to share any personal or specific, but like how would you describe that? What does

What does that look like for somebody who might wonder?

You know, I mean, an extreme example, like, I mean,

in our case, when we left the church,

we had to tell everyone that we were,

that it was our fault that we left

because we heard our pastors and we had to sell our house.

We had to move out of our city.

Anybody who text us or emailed us or called us,

we were not allowed to respond to them.

I mean, so it was an extreme case of like, you know,

you are not allowed to talk to anybody in this church ever

again. You know, under threats of like, if you do, I’m going to

go after your ministerial license, you know, and then on

the back end was telling the people in his church, you know,

or Aaron and Ceci, that’s my wife, you know, they were not

loyal. They were. We later found out that he had accused us of

stealing money from the church. I mean, it was it was just crazy

stuff. But like, those rifts that were completely separating

these friendships that we had developed for 10 years as pastors in that church.

So that’s more of an extreme case.

But you know, anything that if you know, 90% of your waking hours is you have to be here,

you cannot, you know, do any other activities.

You cannot be involved in any other groups then like, that’s, that’s weird and cultish.

Yeah, absolutely.

I saw a meme on Facebook not too long ago and it said, you know, if we don’t go to the

same church anymore, we can still talk to each other, you

know, this is church, we’re not in gangs.

Yeah, no, that’s the mindset behind it, right. And so the

separation from the friends and family. So you mentioned just a

few seconds ago, like it was as much as the conversation was

like, don’t even text them anymore. And it was like, the

encouragement was like, so basically, once you’re gone from

the church, they’re black sheep, right? It’s like, we don’t we

don’t associate anymore. And so I would reference that back to

again, what you said at the beginning, this mindset of the leader building his own kingdom,

right, instead of the greater kingdom. Is that a fair assessment? Oh, absolutely, Justin. Yeah.

Yeah. So what about any other signs that you’re seeing, that you’ve seen that might be helpful?

Yeah, you know, talking to you in confidence about the other people in the church, especially if

you’re like, okay, the pastor bringing you into the confidence and saying, you know, yeah, I’m

I’m really concerned about so and so.

If someone’s talking to you about other people,

then I guarantee you when the scenario changes,

they’ll be talking to other people about you.

And that, what I found in that scenario

and those experiences was that it was pitting everyone

against each other.

And the one source was the spiritual leader at the top.

Just gossip really.

Yeah, it’s crazy to even verbalize it.

I’m hesitating as I’m saying it, because I’m like, this sounds crazy.

It’s that that old mindset. It’s like, this is just between me and you.

Right? When you have that conversation with six people,

the truth anymore, you know? Yeah. And I almost feel like leaders,

some leaders do that at times. It’s like, if I can, if I can,

if the leader can set the tone, right across all these conversations,

then if, if something blows up, it’s like, well, I told you so.

I told you this was happening, you know?

And it’s almost like they’re setting this,

they’re building this web, if you will,

you know, to almost shield themselves

from any maybe accountability or responsibility.

On Tom Cruise, I think, is it not Tom Cruise,

it was Tom Hanks and that movie,

We Were Soldiers, is it We Were Soldiers,

that he was in, no, Saving Private Ryan.

But he made the comment, one of his soldiers asked him,

he said, well, why don’t you ever complain to me?

And he said, well, gripes go up, they don’t go down, right?

And it’s that mindset in leadership

that if we’re complaining to the people

that we should be complaining about

or complaining to the people

that we’re supposed to be leading,

there’s something off in that dynamic

in that relationship, right?

It basically just becomes gossip.

Not everything, I think that’s the struggle.

Sometimes in church, my opinion is that we use the term

venting or we’re having private ministry discussions

as an excuse to just break the biblical command

not to gossip.

We mask them very well, give ourselves excuses

and permission to do so.

Absolutely, bro.

That’s exactly, that’s coined it all

and the perfect phrase right there.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

So give me one more sign of abuse.

You know, you’re talking about spiritual leaders,

toxic leaders, you know.

Yeah.

How do they set up these systems

to cover their own narcissism, right?

Cause a toxic leader,

and maybe that’s a whole mouthful right there.

Maybe we can jump into that a little bit

in this abuse area.

So as far as covering it up, one thing I’ve seen is a smokescreen of accountability.

You know, it’s like, hey, I’m the pastor, you have to submit, you know, spiritual leadership,

be loyal to the church.

But then who’s holding that pastor accountable?

Who is that pastor’s pastor?

And if you ask, they may have an answer.

And it’s going to be like some guy who lives nine states away, you know, or it’s a group

of pastors who are the board of the church, but they’re all you know, the only thing they

know about the churches with that lead pastor is telling them

about the church. So like, there’s no way to hold him

accountable. And I get it, like the people we’re leading should

not be, you know, holding us accountable. But like, if you

have a, you know, I think at some point, like that, that’s

kind of a warped mindset, like it, you should have somebody

around you who’s close enough, who can pull your coattail, as

they say, and say, bro, you’re wrong, man, you, you’re not

doing this, right? You need to check your motives, like

somebody needs to be able to confront you. And when you

remove all that, and then here’s another part of it is put people

in positions who, who are yes men, who are who are obedient,

and then keep constantly remove people who are voicing concerns,

well, then you insulate yourself with this leadership team of,

you know, of yes men, and then people in the church, they might

not go to you, they might go to that person on that team. But

really, they’re getting the same advice from that one person,

because he’s running the whole information input

into that one team.

So it’s just a couple ideas for us insulating,

you know, and how it’s covered up.

Being somebody that’s in ministry,

I connect with people all the time, right?

And so I imagine a lot of people

that have dealt with some of this stuff,

dealt with some of this church shirt like you did,

have on, they stayed quiet about it for a while, right?

And so if they did make their way back to the church

for one reason or another,

I would imagine that individual that’s been impacted

by this church has insulated themselves.

Like I’m not gonna get hurt again.

You know, how do we recognize that?

I mean, how do we minister to somebody

who has been in this type of situation,

you know, that’s had a toxic leader

and felt hurt by the church?

That is a great question, Justin.

There’s a lot of caveats to that.

And when we get hurt, it is very difficult to plug back in.

Like from the perspective of the person who is hurt.

It’s also we become very prone to being critical of the church and of the new pastor. We’ve seen

The the junk we’ve been damaged. So we go and we reconnect

what you’re gonna experience is a

inhibition to connect to that new church to that new pastor you’re gonna be very leery and

Possibly quite critical and just like seeing all the negatives because you’re you’re you’re still you’re sore, you know

you don’t want to get burned again.

And so you’re just on this hypervigilance.

Pastors on the other hand, now you’re asking as a minister,

how do we recognize that?

We are gonna see those lack of ability to fully commit,

maybe not fully given their heart

and are checking things out for an extended period of time.

We may not know why unless the person has been vulnerable

and opened that up to us, but chances are they’re not.

I mean, I’ve heard, I’ve actually tried to connect hurt

people from church hurt to new churches. And in the meetings

have heard the people flat out tell the pastors like I will

never trust what a pastor ever tells me again, you know, so

extensive hurt like that. The pastor didn’t has to assume the

responsibility. Am I willing to love these people through this?

And like, that is going to be hard, it is going to be hard to

be criticized as a leader, to constantly be questioned, and to

to love people past their hurt.

And not every leader is going to be equipped for that.

Thankfully, what I have seen is that churches

whose pastors have been hurt and then healed

tend to attract hurt people and God uses them to heal them.

Most often, God is aware,

God is definitely aware of the leaders giftings

and will send the right people to that church for healing.

It is challenging on both ends.

I cannot overlook that.

For a hurt person to give a new pastor a chance is a leap of faith for that person.

And for a pastor to love a person and pass that hurt, it takes a lot of effort and a lot of energy and a lot of willingness just to be like Christ and say,

I’m going to take a lot of hurt and rejection and criticism and just show this person through consistent action that love is real, that Christlikeness is real, and that genuine leadership in the church exists.

Yeah, that’s really good. So so Aaron your story. How did how did you guys start that path to healing?

Like what was it for you that that got you to this place where you know?

You recognize what have been done with you. You’re out of the ministry at that point, you know

If I understand your story correctly, how did you guys start to pick the pieces back up and heal some of those scars?

Yeah, so when we left

Like I said, I was six weeks just in the house sitting in a chair in the dark room

like, I mean, I was low. And my father in law, who’s a pastor, kept telling me, he says,

you need to go to your presbyter, who would be like a bishop in the Catholic Church,

you know, just sort of a leader over a section of pastors. And he says, you need to go tell him

what happened. And I was resistant. I said, I’m not going because then I have to explain what

happened to my, you know, with my former pastor, I’m not going to shed him in any negative light.

And he was very insistent. And I just refused to do it. And out of sheer desperation,

And I went to a professional therapist and to the presbyter.

So I went to both men the same week

and I had an outline of basically the whole story

in like a 30 minute recap to give them context

and just said, like, what do I do?

What’s going on?

The therapist helped tremendously

because he pointed out basically all the gaslighting

that had been happening.

Cause I was internalizing this.

It’s like, you know, is it my fault?

What did I do wrong?

that I touched the Lord’s anointed, that I offend God,

you know, that I, you know, and all that internal stuff

and the things my pastor told me

that I would not succeed without him,

you know, the direct sabotage,

or just, I’ll tell you the story

if we have time here in a minute, but.

So the therapist says, you know,

Aaron, like you were in an abusive relationship

and like seeing that, like acknowledging that,

when I started to see, you know, this was a narcissist,

this is a sociopath that you were in a relationship with,

Now the results of that is what I’m dealing with.

Like the light brought healing.

The flip side was talking with the presbyter

and he called my former pastor.

And then it went above my presbyter’s head

all the way to the superintendent,

which is over the whole state.

And basically after it was all said and done

and investigated, I was found to be in right standing

with the organization.

And the presbyter told the other pastor,

he says, man, leave him alone.

But I had committed to my pastor.

When we had left, he said, you know, sell your house, move out of the city.

You cannot go to a church in any of the three parishes, which are counties in Louisiana.

After the issue, they gave us this list of things and I agreed to them.

So this the presbyter who became my pastor is now currently my pastor.

He told me, he says, man, you gave your word and now you’re bound by that.

And you feel this condemnation.

He says, you need to call your former pastor and tell him very kindly, but respectfully, you’re not going to do that, that you are going to honor him.

But that’s it. And so I called him on the phone and he answered and I just told him I said look I need to

apologize. I gave you my word that I would you know,

not tell people what really happened that I would sell my house that I would not go to a church and I was like

I can’t do that. I’m gonna live my life freely and wherever God leads me

I’m gonna go but I’m not gonna bash you like and that really broke some things off of us

And then we got into a church a year and a half. We were there and then doors started open

started traveling and preaching. That was always my call. And I always knew how to travel and speak

sort of like what they call an evangelist in some circles, right? Doors open there. And then

the Lord had directed me, you know, quit your job, start writing books, start doing videos.

And it just picked up and gradually getting involved again, reconnecting with healthy churches,

healthy pastors. And over time, we found a sense of healing to where we can now talk about it

without the hurt, without the pain, you know, without the anger and finding our footing again.

Amen. Yeah, you use the word gaslighting, right? And I think on, wasn’t that Webster’s most popular

word in 2022? I think it was. It was one of the ones at the top of the list. But can you, I think

people have a good understanding of what gaslighting is. I mean, it’s a term that is very prevalent in

culture. But can you explain gaslighting specifically in the context of church?

We had Saturday mornings, my wife and I would meet for our marriage. We would talk, read a book,

a marriage book, you know, his needs, her needs, have some coffee. Well, my pastor instituted a

Saturday morning prayer. And we would go, but we started feeling like, man, we, this is our date

time. This is our once a week. We both were working full time jobs. Plus we were both working in the

church, you know? And so I was like, man, I just, I can’t do this pastor. I’m sorry. Like, I’m not

going to be able to go. That became a big fiasco. But when we were discussing it, you know, it was

never like acknowledging or seeing that, hey, like my marriage is important. I’m not sure I’m

dedicating 30 other hours. It was simply like put back on us like, well, you don’t have a heart for

this house. You’re not being loyal to this house where God called you. And then we were also

punished for that. We were told we were not allowed to travel and speak out in other churches.

Anytime a pastor invited us to speak, we had to tell them that we were busy in our local church.

So is your district like you have to have the approval of your sending pastor, I would assume, to go out and speak?

Is that kind of how they had that control, if you will?

Yes, it’s sort of an unsaid thing within that church. However, thankfully, about 50% of what we do in ministry is inside of that organization.

organization, we also, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re spread a lot wider than just that organization.

But it was a personal thing. It was no leverage as far as like, I had to do it. It was simply

like, I felt like honoring my pastor was honoring God. Like, you know, so organization aside,

whether it was in the organization or pastors outside of the organization, I always told

them no, because that’s what my pastor had told me to do. Even though it was punitive.

that was that was irrelevant.

Yeah, that’s good context. So for those are listening to see

your heart in the matter, right? It’s like, here I am, I’m

just trying to honor the man I got in front of me. And yet it’s

constantly taken advantage of or, you know, we see these

gaslighting techniques that were being used against you. And it’s

on. So what would you say if we let’s just say there’s somebody

listening to this, and they’re seeing some of this in their

church. You know, the advice, man, do they do they run? Do

Do they try to confront it?

They’re not at the point where they’ve been hurt yet.

It hasn’t gotten that bad.

It hasn’t mushroomed up.

But they’re recognizing some of these signs and like, I feel like I could be entering

into this and I kind of see it on the horizon.

How do they deal with that?

In that particular context, I would simply advise to just go somewhere where it’s healthy.

Unless you feel like God has put you there to address it.

But that’s gonna be far and few between.

I think that’s gonna be for ministry, lay ministers,

maybe youth pastors, assistant pastors,

guys like that who are in ministry

and are seeing the problems

and you’ve already committed to that church.

And now you’re seeing these red flags.

In that case, like you might be there to influence it

and just up and packing and leaving right away

might not be good.

If you’re just visiting a church and you’re in the crowd

and you’re like looking around on a Sunday morning

and you see like, you know, seven out of the nine signs

that I talk about in the video,

glaring at you in the face,

I’d be like, you know what,

I’m just, I’m gonna go to a different church next Sunday.

Right, it’s the music.

Yeah.

Yeah, so for the lay minister,

they’ve got to be able to, the youth pastor,

if I’m on staff or I’m serving in a church

in a leadership role, then my response is really,

I need to see God and make sure

that I’ve been brought here to influence this change, right?

Before I start going down that battle.

But if I’m a member or I’m just,

you know, I’m hitting the church up on Sunday,

maybe volunteering every once in a while.

It’s a battle they probably you would advise

against somebody fighting.

Yeah, Justin, it’s the Bible says,

engaging in a quarrel that’s not your own

is like a passerby who grabs a dog by the ears.

There’s a whole nother caveat to spiritual abuse,

which is the spirit of Jezebel.

And I know that a lot of people

have a very limited experience with Jezebel.

They think it’s just a promiscuous woman,

which is a very narrow mind of view.

Jezebel is not attached to a man or a woman.

It is a spirit of control and manipulation

that comes into somebody’s heart

whenever they have been abused

and have not fully healed from that abuse,

be it sexual, physical, whatever.

And that spirit seeks the highest position in politics,

in church, in business,

because it wants to control and transfer hurt and offense.

So a lot of times when we have spiritual abuse

happening in a church,

what is happening is that lead pastor

or whoever is in that position that is hurting people

is tied to a spirit of Jezebel.

That being said, the spirit of Jezebel is highly confrontational, very intimidating, very demeaning.

And so anytime you try to address it, even if it’s in the right spirit, even though you have legitimate facts,

most likely you’re going to get your head chopped off, figuratively speaking, in this situation.

And so if God has called you there, if he’s put a Jehu anointing on you to confront this,

I don’t want to tell nobody not to move forward and charge into the battle.

You know, the Bible says if your brother has ought against you go to him and it says, you know

If you know if you have something against your brother go to him

So either way whoever’s at fault, it doesn’t matter

It tells you to confront the person privately and then to go and bring other people

But again, it also tells you another context, you know

Don’t just go engage in a battle unless unless the Lord’s sending you into it

So chances are it’s not gonna be your fight

You probably need to just leave

because it’s just going to get worse and blow up in your face

and you’ll be gaslighted.

And then the longer you entangle with that, the more confusion

and disillusionment will result.

But if you want to take that approach, I mean, you know,

somebody needs to deal with it.

So.

Right. But what we said under it though, you know,

those of us in the faith, I mean,

I don’t think we could ever imagine.

I used to share this with addicts,

people that were struggling with addiction all the time.

Nobody woke up one day and said,

I’m just going to become an addict overnight.

there was this progression of things that happened.

And I think sometimes, you know, in the context of church,

we could sit under this and continue to be chipped away at

for years.

And then the mindset behind that is as we’re being chipped away,

you know, then we end up in a position,

well, I’m just done with the church.

But nobody that’s serving God, you know, faithfully,

thinks that they’re gonna be in a position

where they eventually could be hurt and abused so much

that they just walk away from their faith entirely.

And so I think it’s good advice, you know, like that you just gave, not my battle to

fight.

Like I’ve, you know, there may be, there may be a scenario in a hill that the Lord calls

me to die on.

But when it comes to the value of church relationship and church family, and you know, I need to

be in a healthy place because I’m called to serve that church.

But then also that place is called to help my family grow and mature.

And if I’m constantly fighting these battles and being chipped away at, then, you know,

not that’s certainly not healthy for the individual that’s in it.

Absolutely. Yeah, I’d say 99.9% of people that applies to you like there was one J who in

Scripture, who got right. That’s it, you know,

I grew up in a costume and they threw the J they do a Jezebel term around everybody, you know,

anybody that disagreed with the Jezebel spirit. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that’s that because it takes

away from the reality of what that spirit is.

Yeah.

That’s another, that’s a whole other conversation.

Yeah, yeah.

So, Aaron, you’re back, you’re engaged in the ministry again, man, the Lord’s using

you to travel and share stuff on the internet, like, and I know you did a video on three

ways to serve God after and I’m going to link this whole series for Aaron down in the description.

But what did that look like the journey back, right?

What would you, let’s say there’s somebody listening that’s recovering from church hurt,

And now it’s like, okay, I think I’m ready to be vulnerable again.

And I’m ready to engage in the ministry on you know, what did that look like for you

and what might that look like for somebody else?

Well, the revelation of like, okay, it’s okay to talk about this and to call it for what

it actually is, was the number one step, because I was so afraid to say it.

Like, I felt like if I talk about church hurt, I’m the problem.

If I say that my pastor abused me, then it’s me who was the one who caused all this.

And so you have to reveal in order to heal.

What did I go through?

You have to acknowledge this.

And that’s key.

I know it’s so simple, but in my case, man, I sat for too long not naming it.

Once you’re ready, like you asked, how do you take that step?

You sort of got to challenge yourself.

You have to give yourself time.

You just can’t give yourself forever.

I actually was sitting at the table and had some people who were hurt in church and there

was another minister at the table.

The person says to the hurt person, you just get involved.

I don’t understand.

Like just jump in, you know?

And I thought to myself, you know, that’s like telling someone with a broken leg, you

know, just start jogging again.

If you jog, like the leg will be okay.

true, but it’s not true right now. But the person cannot sit and heal with their leg

propped up for the rest of their life. Like, there’s a timing to it. But at some point,

you have to reset that bone. You have to get back up on it and do some physical therapy

and it’s not going to be comfortable. What happened to us is not our fault. But healing

from it is our responsibility. That’s good. So yeah, taking that leap of saying I am going

to trust again, I am going to connect with another church, I am going to reengage. Those

are some very basic, simple, but not easy steps to take, yet necessary.

Yeah, and it’s okay for the person to put some boundaries in place to protect themselves.

Sometimes I’m just going to dive all in. I don’t know how to swim, but I’m in the pool

and I ain’t got no life vest on. My kids do that all the time. They want to run a jump

in the eight foot section of the pool, especially the younger ones, and it’s like, hold on,

you know, hold up, hold up a little bit. I don’t want to have to jump in and save you,

you know, and you can’t swim. And so it’s okay for them to put that life vest on, have

a little bit of boundaries. Do you have any insight into that? What type of boundaries,

you know, that type of person would put in in place?

So that type of person, sorry, that was the wrong term to use. Somebody who’s been hurt

by church. That sounded terrible. Yeah. Boundaries are healthy and any healthy person will have

boundaries. Jesus had boundaries. You know, it’s kind and it’s Christ-like to be kind to people and

to answer their questions and things like that. But Jesus would say, like, you know, they’re trying

to trip him up and he’s like, and they say, well, tell me, you know, how you do this or what? And

he says, I’ll tell you what, you tell me blah, blah, blah. And they’re like, oh, we don’t know.

he’s like, why I’m telling you either. Like, I’m not gonna play

those games. I’m not going to allow you to corner me. I’m not,

you know, and that’s a very small example. But Paul also

was, you know, very, very firm in his identity and would not

let people just say anything about him without you know, him

speaking up. I did read safe people. And I read boundaries,

both by the same author, cloud and Townsend. And I read safe

people yet. Yeah. Oh, man. Safe people is fantastic. It is specifically even more so

than boundaries for people who are dealing with church hurt because it shows you how to deal with

a narcissist or a sociopath or some somebody particularly who is very unsafe, which would

definitely fit the qualifications. But the biggest thing we can talk about here with boundaries,

I’ll say is to just like understand that having boundaries is good. It’s Christ like it’s healthy.

That is the biggest misconception. It’s like if I set up boundaries like that I’m being mean,

or I’m being un-Christian, that is the furthest thing from the truth. Boundaries are absolutely

essential. The reason we got hurt in the first place is because we did not have healthy boundaries

in place. As far as our responsibility, again, it’s not our fault. However, as far as our

responsibility, had we had healthy boundaries in place, we would have been protected. And so,

a caveat to what you go through in churchyard is to learn that, okay, I need to put up boundaries.

Yeah. Yeah, I imagine that’s got to be so hard, man. Like when you’re looking at a leader,

and we use these terms narcissist and sociopath, and like, out of the people that are supposed to

be our shepherds, like, and that, I can’t, I can’t even imagine that’s a hard dichotomy,

like to swallow that, you know, when I see the way Jesus was direct, but man, he loved, you know,

and when I think of Jesus as the shepherd, you know, and the pastor is supposed to be that

shepherd for me, not my Jesus, but my shepherd, right? And then I get entangled with this person

who’s narcissistic and has all these tendencies. I mean, that’s just really got to wreck the brain

in the heart a little bit, you know, to have that relationship be so perverted, if you will,

from what it’s supposed to be. Absolutely, bro. Yeah. It’s devastating, man.

Yeah. Well, I’m grateful for you speaking up and talking about it. I think that, you know,

as I brought out in the intro a lot of times, we think church, and we go to this extreme,

and we think about some of these huge scandals that have happened in the church publicly,

and all the people that have been hurt by those things.

But really, Aaron, what I’m getting from you

is that this church hurt thing is something that happens

at a much more micro level across the country.

It’s not always these huge scandals,

but it’s kind of this day to day kind of entanglement

with spiritually abusive leaders.

Would that be a fair assessment?

Yeah, and let me look real fast.

I think I wanna make sure what I’m telling you is accurate.

Is it we’re selfish?

Let me look at a scripture.

I think it says where selfish ambition exists every evil.

Yep, in James 3.16, it says, you know,

where there’s selfish ambition,

you will find every kind of evil, right?

And so going back to what we expect,

we expect that a shepherd, that a pastor would be loving

and selfless and helpful and like shepherding people.

But when there’s selfish ambition,

Like it’s somebody who is leading a church

that has not dealt with that soulish arena in their lives

that is like in it for my name.

Like the Bible says every kind of evil exists.

So manipulation, control, fear, confusion, perversion,

like all of these things are there.

That’s a guarantee from the word, right?

And so, yeah, the big things are gonna catch

the media attention, but you know,

Unfortunately, there’s no like, you don’t have to literally appear before God and say, God, okay, I feel called to pastor church, should I pastor a church and he give you a stamp of approval, like, is the beauty of being in a Christian nation is that any Joe blow and industry called I can start a church. Right.

So, you know, hey, you know, did God endorse that pastor?

I mean, I don’t know, but I think even good men can get crossed up.

You know, Solomon started out well and then he got crossed up, you know?

I just, man, if the heart is not dealt with and the person goes high in ministry, then

a lot of other people can get broken in the process.

Yeah.

So, Aaron, I’m going to wrap up here in a second.

Let me, you know, if Aaron could,

if you could hop in a DeLorean,

I got my DeLorean over here, my time machine,

and go back to the beginning of all this,

and there’s one thing that you could have done different,

you know, and I know you didn’t cause the abuse, right?

And so we’re, you know, that’s not my intent in the question,

but if there was one thing that you could have done

different, you know, either on that topic of boundaries

or whatever, you know, what would it have been

back when all this was unfolding?

So, so I was always sort of drinking the Kugel aid, if you will.

And really what changed the so I told you five years, the last five years was was much

different and was bad.

What changes that I got married, and my wife came in as she was an outsider so she had

a very objective viewpoint she wasn’t subjectively tied to the pastors the way I was.

So she voiced some concerns immediately.

And immediately when my pastor realized that my wife was seeing through the facade, he

turned against her.

And he was he was, he was trying to stop her influence.

But the way he did that was he brought me into his confidence against my wife.

And I was, I was a newly married man, who really believed deep in my heart that honoring

and doing whatever my pastor told me to do was to just to like that was honoring God.

And so whatever he told me, even negatively about my wife, I would tell her as well. And

so I was my wife verbally, like, you know, you got to change, you got to get your heart

right, like alongside of this abusive pastor. And like now looking back, I am as a man as

as a Christian, I’m embarrassed. I feel like I was like, I hurt my wife. I did it under

like complete, like, just not knowing. But I just I’m embarrassed. I don’t know how

to say it, bro. It’s like I was a horrible husband in that moment in that night. I did

not stand up to this man. And it’s like, like, I now see that like my marriage, that is the

most important relationship and nobody’s allowed to come between

that. Yeah, and I allow my ignorance and so I feel that

bone I can hear it in my voice bro. But like, if I could change

something, I would go back and instead of siding with my

pastor, I would definitely side with my wife and tell my pastor

you like you when you will never be allowed to speak about my

wife like that to me. You can bash her with your friends, but

you’re not gonna bash her to be.

Yeah. That’s good. Thank you for sharing that. I know that’s,

Yeah, I know that we can’t change the past, but hearing those type of stories, man, and

those examples are helpful for those who may find themselves in the middle of it, you know,

and trying to decide, okay, what do I do now?

You know, what do I do from this point on?

And man, I just wanted to speak real quick to that before we wrap up.

But you know, that whole thing about the pastor, that thing that keeps resonating to me through

this whole conversation is that pastor bringing that person into their confidence.

It’s like we’re spiritual leaders and we pastor,

but we’re not, we wonder how many therapists

do you hear talking to their other clients

about their clients, right?

There should be a level of confidentiality

that a pastor is required to keep.

Somebody comes to me for pastoral counseling,

that’s between me and that person,

but man, that sign, I never even thought about it that way

of that person having those side conversations

and like, well, this is attorney-client privilege,

if you will, it’s just between us.

But like, no, the pastor has to guard against that.

And Aaron, before we wrap up,

man, my encouragement to any spiritual leaders

that may be watching,

if you’ve heard some of these examples,

that you’re hearing this,

first and foremost,

listen, I’m a sinful human as a leader and a pastor,

and I need people in my life speaking to me

to make sure that I’m guarding against becoming

one of these leaders that hurts people.

And that’s the hard conversation to have, right?

To understand that all of us in the flesh,

if we’re not pursuing the Lord’s ambition,

we’re susceptible to becoming these people that hurt.

No pastor sets out to do that either,

not to excuse the ones who are doing it.

But for the spiritual leaders out there, man,

like you’ve got to guard yourself.

You know, we sometimes, you know,

the scripture talks about a man does what’s right

in his own eyes, you know,

but the Lord established the steps.

And so many times we begin to make decisions that are,

This is right in my eyes.

This is the right thing to do.

And then on the other end of that, there are people.

Well, I appreciate it, man.

Aaron, would you take a second?

And I mean, I know some of this stuff wasn’t easy to share

and I appreciate you opening up and sharing your heart,

not just with us here, but with just, you know,

out there on the internet in general, man,

dropping this stuff out there.

And I know you’re adding value when you go

and you preach at different places, man.

I can hear your heart for the Lord

and your heart for Jesus and people

and everything that you do, man.

How can people find you and connect with you

if they wanna learn more?

Yeah, I hang out on YouTube mostly

and I’m on Instagram as well, but it’s pretty simple.

My name’s Aaron, spelled like the brother of Moses.

J for James, like the brother of Jesus.

And Daigle, like the brother of Lauren Daigle.

Unfortunately, I’m not a sibling to any of the three.

Right.

Aaron J. Daigle.

Nice.

My books are on Amazon, my videos are on YouTube,

and I’m on Instagram sometimes.

Hey, thanks so much for watching.

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